Author Topic: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel  (Read 8194 times)

Corpsie

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2012, 03:56:08 PM »
So, as it stands today, a translucent WMO blend cannot be made without using WVO and including some risk that the WMO/WVO reaction will occur somewhere within the fuel system or engine?  :-\


Jhanananda

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2012, 06:04:18 AM »
Well, Corpsie, a translucent WMO blend can be made without WVO by using acetone as the primary solvent for the WMO, but, if you can get WVO free, as I can, then blending WVO at 50% with WMO will make the resulting blend translucent at no cost; however, as you pointed out, just making a translucent WMO blend does not mean that it will not react with an existing, or future, WVO blend.  However, it just occurred to me that if I increased the content of acetone in the translucent WMO/WVO blend that perhaps there would be no more reactions.  I will give that a try in the 50 gallons of translucent WMO blend that has been settling for a few weeks to see what happens.

Here is the sequence of work that led up to the coked injectors I replaced with clean ones yesterday:

Wednesday 03-28-2012 Back-flushed fuel line and filters; Remove and inspect fuel line y-trap; Re-Filtering blend into fuel cans and centrifuged the fuel 3x.

Thursday 04-05-2012, Replaced the injectors with a clean rebuilt set

Saturday 04-07-2012, Dropped fuel tank and scrubbed it out.

Monday 04-09-2012 Filtered 30 gallons of translucent WMO/WVO fuel blend into the fuel tank.  The blend was 40%WMO/40%WVO/18%gasoline and 2%acetone.  It had been settling for 2 months.

Monday 04-16-2012, noticed increasing signs of injector coking. I increased the gasoline content in the current WMO/WVO blend by 10% from 20% to 30%.  Noticed the engine ran much better, lowered emissions and greater performance, which continued.

Wednesday 04-25-2012, engine was still starting well and running well, but had hot restart problem, so I replaced the injectors for a clean set.

Upon inspection I found the pulled set of injectors coked with a black crust-like coating.  It was also noted that the injectors were not as heavily coked as in the past; and there were locations where the crust had fallen away on several of the injectors.  I also picked at the crust with an Exacto knife blade and found portions of the crust fell off easily, which was not like any previous coked injector I had inspected from my previous experiments.


a coked injector removed yesterday

an injector from the same set at 200x

The driving conditions were similar to past conditions of driving around town short distances for shopping and work, etc.

Conclusion:
1) The translucent fuel blend of 40%WMO/40%WVO/18%gasoline and 2%acetone made on Monday 04-09-2012 only ran for 10 days before coking was evident.  A previous such blend ran for 2 months before coking was evident. This suggests that there might have been something in the WMO that was no in the previous batch of WMO that caused the coking.  There might have been gear oil, or grease in the batch, which could have contributed to the coking.

2) Increasing the gasoline content by 10% from 20% to 30% seemed to halt any further coking.  The chipping away of the coke crust suggests that the increased gasoline content might have worked to remove some of the coke that was on the injectors.  It might be worth increasing the gasoline content at the first signs of coking, instead of waiting until I had a hot starting problem; and running increased gasoline content for a longer period, or do some high RPM runs, on the increased gasoline content to burn off the coke.

3) I will continue running this current blend containing 30% gasoline, with a clean set of injectors, and the current driving conditions for the next two weeks, to see if the injectors coke up again.  If the injectors run fine through the rest of this blend, then I will introduce a new similar blend with gasoline at 30% and acetone at 5%.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 06:12:18 AM by Jhanananda »
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline (Petrol) since Feb, 2007 in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP. I have started the engine with no difficulty on an 80/20 (WVO/gas (petrol)) blend down to 3F (-16c). I have found th

Jhanananda

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2012, 06:47:34 AM »
The engine started and ran fine all day on clean injectors and 28% gasoline/2%acetone in the WMO35%/WVO35% blend, as I drove around picking up parts for a fuels experiment.  Finally around 5PM I tried to drive to the hardware store for the third time and found the engine would not start.  I think the Injector Pump maybe on its last legs and coking might exacerbate its problems, and might even wear the IP out further.  I pulled it from a wreck last summer, so it may have been warn out when I got it.  I have a spare that I got from another wreck, so I am not going to worry about it, but when I am at the end of all of these experiments I might send off one of my IPs to be rebuilt.

The coked injectors have been in the ultrasonic cleaner since I pulled them out two days ago.  I won't be able to get to cleaning them today, so they will stay in the ultrasonic cleaner until I can get to them.  Worst case, the current set of injectors will coke up in about 2 weeks, so I have that long to get them ready. 

However, indications are that at 30% gasoline+acetone the current blend will run indefinitely. If the engine is still running well in two weeks then I have a similar blend to filter and centrifuge into the fuel tank.  I will tweak it a bit, learning from the last blend, to: 35%WMO/35%WVO/25%gasoline and 5%acetone.  It will require adding 2 more gallons to the blending tank, which was full, and I still have not drained 2 gallons from it since I blended it 2 weeks ago, but it is close, and I will need the room to add more gasoline and acetone.

I think also giving the blend plenty of time to settle sediments is wise.  I have been settling most of the waste oil components for months.  However, about two months ago I realized that since WMO and WVO cause dissolved contaminants to precipitate out, and it takes 3 weeks for them to settle out, then, if I am going to make a WMO/WVO blend, I should blend them together as soon as possible to allow them the maximum time for settling. 

So, a few months ago I blended my WMO and WVO together in equal parts with gasoline at 20%, and I added acetone at 2% to each 5 gallon bucket.  That is when I started the regimen of transferring my waste oil blends every week from the container they are in to a clean container.  Doing so has shown that every week there are sediments, but those sediments are roughly reduced in half every week, so that after 3 weeks there is only a thin film left at the bottom of those containers.

However, I noticed with this last batch, that it was free of sediments when I added the 4 5-gallon buckets to my 20-gallon blending tank, but the day after I extracted 1/2 gallon of thick, dark, sticky fluid from the bottom of my blending tank.  The next day I extracted another 1/2 gallon of thick, dark, sticky fluid.  The following days I extracted about 1 cup (250ml) each day, then after about a week it became 1 cup (250ml) of thick, dark, sticky fluid every other day, which is where I am now.  This has shown me that every blend has variations, which can produce more precipitates, so it needs to be made uniform and settled out for at least 3 weeks before use. 

The precipitates add up to nearly 10% of the blend.  Although I have found if they were settled for a week, then the sediments would be only a thick film at the bottom of the 1/2 gallon container.  This also suggests that every batch of WMO/WVO blend might produce sediments in reaction to the previous blend still in the fuel tank.

Conclusions:
1) Every batch of WMO/WVO blend might produce sediments in reaction to the previous blend still in the fuel tank.

2) If WMO/WVO blend is going to be a viable fuel solution, then a work around needs to be worked out.

3) Increasing the acetone content might solve this problem.  So currently I am going to increase it to 5% of the blend to see if that helps.

4) Another work around is for me to transfer the remnants of the previous blend into my 6-gallon start up tank and run on it until it is exhausted, then switch to the main tank where the next blend is.

5) Another possible work around would be to pump out the fuel tank at the end of a blend, and blend that residue with a future blend, but it will have to settle with that blend for 3 weeks before use.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 06:39:02 AM by Jhanananda »
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline (Petrol) since Feb, 2007 in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP. I have started the engine with no difficulty on an 80/20 (WVO/gas (petrol)) blend down to 3F (-16c). I have found th

nuffsaid

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2012, 05:29:25 PM »
If you are having hard hot start issues, try pouring cold water over the top of the injection pump and wait five minutes and see if engine will start. If it starts, the head and rotor are worn and the pump will need to be replaced. The head and rotor are the most expensive part of the pump.

Jhanananda

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2012, 06:35:41 AM »
I think that is a really good idea for anyone who does not own a van, but trying that with a van would take so long pulling the seats and dog house off that the engine would have cooled off by then.  I suppose I could rig up a hose and funnel, but I am just going to accept that the current IP in my 6.2 is worn out and needs to be replaced when I can get to it.  I will keep it around for a backup pump for a road repair.  I have a spare that I will swap it out for when I can get motivated to swap the IPs.  It might be worn out as well.

I was just reflecting upon the last sequence of events that led up to the last set of coked injectors and noticed that Monday 04-09-2012 I Filtered 30 gallons of translucent WMO/WVO fuel blend into the fuel tank, then a week later on Monday 04-16-2012, I noticed increasing signs of injector coking.

To make 30 gallons of waste oil blend means I had to blend 1 and a 1/2 batches together. And, I recently noticed that there is enough variability from one batch of translucent blend to the next that precipitates of lacquer and free carbon can be produced when one batch meets another, and it takes about 3 weeks of settling for those precipitates to settle out, so the cause of the last set of coked injectors could simply be an incompatibility between one translucent blend and the next. 

So, possibly adding more acetone to the blend could reduce this variability, because acetone has the ability to force lacquer out of solution with WMO.  Nonetheless, if making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel is going to be a solution, then this variability from one batch to the next has to be solved, and increasing the acetone content might be the solution.  Or, just increasing the gasoline content in the blend might be a solution. Or, both.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 07:19:06 AM by Jhanananda »
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline (Petrol) since Feb, 2007 in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP. I have started the engine with no difficulty on an 80/20 (WVO/gas (petrol)) blend down to 3F (-16c). I have found th

Corpsie

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2012, 09:01:54 AM »
Since the WVO around is being consumed by those creating biofuel, and it seems to be "safer", I'll stick with acetone and take the financial hit (which is minimal compared to having to swap injectors on a T444e).

Can excess acetone be extracted from cleaned WMO by heating and condensing the vapors?

BTW: I purchased a gamma seal lid at Home Depot. If you haven't installed one onto a bucket yet be prepared to use a lot more force than you probably expect to get it to snap on fully. Once it's on, it is ON.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 09:08:12 AM by Corpsie »

Jhanananda

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2012, 05:34:47 AM »
Thanks for the response, Corpsie.  I did make a blend of WMO with acetone only as the solvent at 20% of the blend.  The resulting blend was translucent, but I did not test whether it was free of reactive precipitation with WVO, but my guess is it would not be.  However, acetone at 20% might do in the seals of the IP and/or fuel hoses, unless it is all viton.

One could, as you suggested, evaporate off the excess acetone, or all of it, and re-condense it for future use.  It would take a simple still and heating the blend up to about 165F (73c) until there are no more condensates formed.

I have not used a gamma seal lid for a 5 gallon bucket yet.  I bought one yesterday to make a tube in a bucket condenser for some experiments I am conducting.  I did not need a lid, so I did not buy one.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 06:25:26 AM by Jhanananda »
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline (Petrol) since Feb, 2007 in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP. I have started the engine with no difficulty on an 80/20 (WVO/gas (petrol)) blend down to 3F (-16c). I have found th

Corpsie

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2012, 10:19:14 AM »
Sounds like I may have to experiment with using pressure depression + heat to extract acetone from a blend.  Luckily I've got time and scientific curiosity.  :D


Jhanananda

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 05:36:07 AM »
I am not sure what you mean by "pressure depression?" But, keep us posted on your results.
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline (Petrol) since Feb, 2007 in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP. I have started the engine with no difficulty on an 80/20 (WVO/gas (petrol)) blend down to 3F (-16c). I have found th

Corpsie

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2012, 09:50:39 AM »
Pressure depression meaning reduce the pressure inside the vessel in which the blend is stored.   I try to avoid the word "vacuum" like the plague.

http://www.precisionfiltration.com/products/vacuum-dehydration-oil-purification-systems.asp  - Like this system. Click on the PDF "VDOPS Vacuum Dehydration Oil Purification System"
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 10:00:24 AM by Corpsie »

Jhanananda

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2012, 06:04:35 AM »
Thanks, Corpsie, I figured you were writing about vacuum distillation, but I wanted to be sure.  So, what is your issue with using the term "vacuum?"

The system described only seems to be about removing water contamination from oils and fuels.  An interesting idea for removing water from our waste oils, but just blending gasoline with them does that.

Sunday I added another 500ml of waste acetone to my next batch of fuel blend to see if it will force more lacquer and free carbon out, and make my fuel blends play friendly with each other.

It occurred to me that my coked injectors may not have been caused by anything in the batch, but an incompatibility between batches, which could have created more lacquer and free carbon precipitates.  From experience the first blend between WMO and WVO nets about 10% of the total volume as sediments, which is 3 gallons for my fuel system to handle, which overwhelms the filters and traps. 

Future blends of translucent WMO/WVO blends tend to produce about 1% precipitates, which translates into about 1.2 quarts (liters), which my fuel system can handle, but should be removed before the next batch, and could cause some spill-over while running.  This means adding gasoline to the blend might not solve the coking problem, but it clearly helps keep the engine running. So, I plan to back-flush my fuel line filters soon.

The hot restart problem continues, even though the engine otherwise starts and runs fine.  So, this Sunday is the day that I am going to swap out my IP for a spare to see if it will run OK.  If doing so does not solve the hot restart problem, then I am going to have to send one of my IPs off for a rebuild, unless someone knows where I can get a seal kit for it, and instructions on how to repair my own IP. 

At the same time I am going to pull one injector to see how my injectors are doing with gasoline at 30% in the blend without having flushed the fuel line filters.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 06:17:53 AM by Jhanananda »
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline (Petrol) since Feb, 2007 in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP. I have started the engine with no difficulty on an 80/20 (WVO/gas (petrol)) blend down to 3F (-16c). I have found th

Jhanananda

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2012, 07:05:29 AM »
I have found from recent discussions with blenders that they are trying to repeat my translucent blend and not finding the same results.  One person proposed that perhaps it is because I am using a metal blending tank, but then I pre-blend in plastic containers and find the precipitates. 

Another hypothesis is I use waste vegetable oil, and perhaps new vegetable oil does not react with WMO to cause precipitates.  I do not know, because I have not tried the blend with new oil. 

Another hypothesis is perhaps it is only canola oil that causes the precipitates.  Maybe.  I only work with canola WVO.

So, can people post whether they have tried making the translucent blend that I have been reporting on, and if they are having success or failure with the method, so that we can understand the variables?

Also, I reviewed my last two months of blending research and decided not to change out my IP this weekend, and decided instead to run out this blend for another 2 weeks, then pump out the fuel tank, and introduce pump diesel fuel and run it for a few days to see if it might "dry-out" the seals in my IP. 

The hypothesis that is being tested here is perhaps my IP is suffering swollen seals due to the alcohol content in my local gasoline, and/or the high percentage of acetone in my blend might be causing the problem.  Although, if it is swollen seals due to the above solvents in excess, then they may have caused permanent damage to the seals in the IP.  But, it is all worth testing.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 07:08:27 AM by Jhanananda »
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline (Petrol) since Feb, 2007 in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP. I have started the engine with no difficulty on an 80/20 (WVO/gas (petrol)) blend down to 3F (-16c). I have found th

DD

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2012, 11:15:25 PM »
My thought is that this thread doesn't belong in the black diesel sub forum. Blending WVO and WMO is clearly an experimental endeavor fraught with hazard that has nothing to do with black diesel. You have created enough sub forums, leave this forum for gas, oil, kerosene, jet fuel, drip condensate and every other nontraditional petroleum based diesel fuel componant.

That's just my two cents.

Jhanananda

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2012, 05:16:39 AM »
DD, your request seems reasonable, but black diesel will not run on my engine without coking the injectors in about 3 days or 200 miles, which ever comes first. Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel is how I can get it to run for months without coking my injectors. 

If black diesel will not run on my engine without coking the injectors, then it is likely to have the same problem with most IDI diesel engine designs.  If we look at the people who are successfully running black diesel we find most of them have DI diesel engines.  Therefore it seems to me like Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel is the way to burn WMO on all diesel engines; and modifying WMO so that it can blend with WVO is useful for anyone who recycles waste oils because one never knows what is available at any given moment.

Yesterday I retrieved a 55 gallon barrel with 40 gallons of mostly waste gasoline in it, with a little WMO from a small engine repair shop that had moved and left their waste drum.  So, I took the whole drum.  Now I have 100 gallons of fuel on hand.  I guess I had better take that trip I have been planning.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 06:00:03 AM by Jhanananda »
I have been running various blends of waste oils and unleaded gasoline (Petrol) since Feb, 2007 in a 1983 Chevy G-20 van with a 6.2L diesel V-8 engine, with a Stanadyne Rotary DB2 IP. I have started the engine with no difficulty on an 80/20 (WVO/gas (petrol)) blend down to 3F (-16c). I have found th

DD

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Re: Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2012, 10:33:17 AM »
I run waste 15w40 and gasoline at an approx 70/30 ratio in my 6.2 Detroit and I have never had an injector issue. I get some smoke and odor at idle but have never had a cylinder misfire. When I first started burning waste oils in this truck I broke the driveshaft on my original IP by trying to pour straight waste oils into the tank. When I installed the replacement pump I advanced the pump timing approx 2 degrees. That is an easy adjustment and it did help. It pings with D2 but is quieter when running the WMO blend. My engine is non emissions with less than 50k miles and runs well. The replacement IP was from a scrap take out early 6.2L HMMWV engine that I had purchased.

I disagree about IDI engines, I know folks have been running waste oil blends in IDI engines since the 1980s. I'm running the same engine as you and haven't had the injector coking problem. Why that is I'm not sure but as we discussed, If running your truck at higher RPM helps you avoid or clean up your carbon I would say the problem is your 'combustion events'. The higher RPM/injection timing advance/air flow rates are certainly a much different type of combustion event and evidence suggest that they produce less deposits and emissions.

I read a post of yours on another forum in which you stated that you were averse to adjusting the IP timing. I consider this simply tuning an engine. Although it has a similar calorific value, waste oil blends (veg or petroleum) do not have the same combustion properties as the D2 that your 6.2L Detroit was designed to run on. Waste oil blends simply burn slower. This difference in combustion properties is more evident in low RPM combustion events. Advancing the base timing to compensate for the longer combustion time of a waste oil blend is exactly what the DPtuner is doing for the PSD folks. Other than correcting any base engine and fuel system faults on your truck I believe, based on my experience, that advancing your base IP timing the single best thing you could do to be more successful burning a black diesel blend. You simply need to get the waste oil blend into the combustion chamber earlier than D2.

My opinion is that blending veg and petroleum wastes does not change the basic property of waste fuels slower burn in compression ignition engines and the only thing that will speed up the burn of a waste oil blend is an oxygenator.